Paul Walsh

Luca Passani is wrong in my opinion - discrimination isn’t good for business

 Posted on February 19, 2007 at 6:06 am |  By Paul Walsh
 Leave a Comment, 66 Comments so far

I’m surprised by the lack of awareness of Luca Passani from Openwave and co-accessablity icon founder of WURFL , about people who have special needs/preferences when browsing the Web. To put this into context, I’ll give you some background before I telling you why.

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) is responsible for creating and harmonizing standards such as HTML (Hypertext Markup Language) and HTTP (Hypertext Transfer Protocol).

mwi logo

In 2005, The W3C started an initiative called the Mobile Web Initiative (MWI). The MWI Best Practices was one of the first documents created by the group. The document is basically a list of guidelines to help developers, who are not necessarily familiar with mobile technology, develop Web sites that will work better on mobile devices such as PDAs and Web enabled phones.

In the interest of taking advantage of existing expertise within the W3C, the group reviewed guidelines that already existed and started with the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG). These guidelines help developers build sites that are accessible to as many people as possible. In short, Web accessibility is about making sure all visitors [users/people] on your Web site can access the content regardless of ability.

We took this route because Web sites that are built using accessibility guidelines for people are also very useful for making sites more accessible on different device types, such as desktop computers, laptops and mobile phones.

We went through the accessibility guidelines and discussed each one in great detail via conference calls and email. We discarded the guidelines that weren’t appropriate for mobile devices and modified, where appropriate, the remaining guidelines. We then added additional best practices that didn’t exist in WCAG. So in summary, we only used what was appropriate.

During an MWI email conversation, Luca made a passing comment about disabled people’s needs and how they should be met. In my opinion, he made too many assumptions about how to be fair and equal to disabled people.

Rather than clog up the W3C’s inbox with opinions about making the Web accessible to all, I thought it might be a good idea to write this post and solicit readers’ opinions.

So, Luca was responding to the following comment

… help developers ensure that they build Web sites which are accessible to as many users as possible, including people with disabilities.

Luca’s response was

People with disabilities should get software or reformatting proxies built to enable them to hit the regular web. Are hotel rooms built for people with disabilities? no, but they usually have 3 or 4 rooms built for that purposes.

Do metro stations have enough lifts to carry thousands of people going in and out? no. They have one lift or two for people with disabilities and ladies pushing a pram.

Same goes for anything else. We can’t disable the web because of people with disabilities, we need to enable it for them. Same goes for the mobile web of course. In fact, it’s already hard enough to enable the mobile web for people without disabilities…

Leaving the difficulties of developing Web sites that will work on mobile devices aside; I would like to focus on Luca’s comment regarding people with disabilities.

First of all, his last comment about not disabling the Web for people with disabilities is obvious. However, I think the rest of his comment demonstrates ignorance and lack of awareness for people who have different needs.

I think he’s talking about disabled people, as if they deserve second best. They’re perhaps even second class citizens who deserve only to stay in specific rooms in hotels and leave by the back door because it’s wide enough for delivery services.

Not only is Web accessibility a moral and corporate social responsibility, it’s actually a legal requirement in countries such as the UK, United States and Australia. Furthermore, it makes good business sense given all the financial and search optimisation benefits which we’ll cover in another post.

There are circumstances where it’s not possible to provide equal access to everyone all of the time.

‘Accessibility’, we should try our best not to discriminate against other people, by making sure everyone in society has equal access and is treated fairly - but should this come at the expense of making redundancies or closing down a business?

Below are three examples that demonstrate how society just doesn’t get it, or perhaps, doesn’t care?
  1. My first example below demonstrates that providing the same access to everyone isn’t possible all of the time, yet people are still treated equally.
  2. The second example demonstrates a situation where it is possible to provide equal access, but a local authority has decided to prohibit ‘access to everyone’, in favour of the sentimental value of a building.
  3. My final example draws the parallel between the first two accessibility issues that are recognised by everyone, irrespective of the industry they’re involved in and the online world.

Every example is based on my personal experience.

Example 1

My next door neighbour is a solicitor with an office located on the forth floor of a very narrow, listed building . It’s technically impossible to install a lift. The cost of adding an extension in order to install a lift is significantly disproportionate to the benefits of making it accessible to wheelchair users. In short, he would go out of business if forced to install a lift.

So, to ensure he is being inclusive and fairly accommodating all clients, he makes customers and potential customers aware that he’s very happy to meet with them in the café across the road.

Do you think he should try to install a lift no matter what the cost? Or do you think it’s ok to meet people in the café?

Example 2

Retail outlet Gap is located in the scenic high-street of Guildford . Gap also happens to be located in a listed building. They applied for planning permission to have a lift installed during a complete refurbishment project, perhaps for dads like me with two small children in a double pushchair (gremlins at the best of time when your back is turned) (note, I include myself and my double pushchair in the classification “disabled” here, I am not restricting the term to the traditional sense of the word).

Gap’s planning permission to install a lift was denied by Guildford Council as it is a listed building. Today, Gap has a beautifully furnished retail outlet but it doesn’t permit access to the men’s department for a great number of potential customers, including dads with double pushchairs and wheelchair users.

Is this ok? If you were the planning authority for Guildford and you had to choose between two pieces of legislation, would you choose a building over people? Could Gap still be taken to court? Personally I think there’s a case to take against Guildford Council.

Could Guildford Council be taken to court? Remember the airport was also found 50% liable when Ryanair lost their court case for charging a passenger for the use of a wheelchair.

Example 3

River Island (you’ve probably read about this in the media last year) built river island web site screen shota Web site that didn’t provide equal access to everyone. In fact, it’s one of the most inaccessible Web sites I’ve every come across. It’s horrible.

Since they’ve been slated in the press and reaping the benefit of free PR (it is arguable at the same time that they used great marketing tactics). River Island has stated that it will build a HTML alternative so that disabled users can have access.

Nearly a year later and River Island still hasn’t built an accessible site. Do they really think that a placeholder page is a ‘get out of jail free card’?

So, not only will River Island have to spend more time and money buildingriver island web site with message to disabled users a new site, they will have to spend ongoing time and money in maintaining the site because both must provide the same products and services at the same time. Otherwise they’re back to square one and could end up in court.

Some users may feel discriminated against if they’re asked to use another Web site ‘just because’.

Conclusion?

So, if it’s not technically possible, or the cost is significantly disproportionate to the benefit of making a Web site accessible, then provide an alternative.

Does River Island fit into this category? Last year I would have said maybe, but because they haven’t bothered their arse to do anything I’d say they should be sued for purposely excluding people. I have time for organisations that aren’t aware, but I have no time for those that have been told in black and white what they’re doing is wrong.

Should people write to Guildford Council to find out why they think it’s more important to maintain the look ‘n feel of the inside of a building than it is to provide equal access to everyone and to treat everyone fair?

I’m very interested to hear your opinion because often we entertain extreme views in society. We have people who think disabled users get too many parking spaces in shopping centres, while others go on the war path if they see a driver in a disabled spot 5 mins before Tesco is about to close on a Sunday afternoon and it’s unlikely that 50 disabled drivers are about to enter the car park and require that same spot.

If we find it difficult to get it right on the high-street, how on earth are we supposed to get it right online? If we can’t get it right online after 16 years, what hope do we have when making the Web mobile?

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  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    Sean Owen
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    February 19, 2007 @ 5:12 pm

    I think reasonable people can disagree about your lift example. Accessibility is a social goal with a social cost and there is some line beyond which the benefits outweigh costs. The question is where the line is, and what even the goal is: accessibility merely to enter a building? accessibility to all buildings? access to substantially the same community resources?

    Anyway, Luca rightly brings this question to web accessibility. I don’t read into his original comments any hints at discrimination or second-class citizenship. We all agree that society should bear reasonable costs to equalize the opportunities of all citizens; it can’t bear infinite cost so the question is how much and how; where’s the line. Your examples show situations that fall on one side of this line, on the line, and on the other side.

    So let’s take that question to the web. One can’t reserve some percentage of the web site for users with accessibility needs; that’s not how it works. On one end, you can build a customized fully-accessible web site separate from your main site. Expensive and not very one-web is it. On the other end you can try to author your site correctly so that, for example, users can enlarge the font while not destroying the site’s layout. You can use meaningful structural markup to aid transcoders and screen readers.

    I think the latter is the most realistic, lowest-cost, fastest way to make the web accessible. I think Luca agrees. Rather than berate site owners for not building an accessible site, turn them on to the benefits of proper web authoring. Indeed, the solution will be in good tools on the user’s end. I think WCAG falls somewhere between these two extremes. Just as laws require buildings to *enable* access by wheelchair-bound citizens, it’s the wheelchair that really gets them around. I think we need to first focus on user-side tools, while simultaneously reasonably exhorting sites to be friendly to these tools. Presto: no disabling of the web.

    On a related point — WCAG is a relatively heavy-handed specification which defines activities that are morally and legally motivated. People don’t make sites accessible for primarily business reasons. mobileOK is a similar specification, but, there is no such moral or legal imperative to build mobile-friendly sites. Luckily, there are clear business reasons. But, I think it means that we rightly had to shift thinking away from the WCAG mindset of “how can we make sure those forced to adopt this won’t cheat” to “how can we make sure that conformance to each of these requirements is clearly worth the effort?” I believe the outcome has been great in this regard.

  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    flag

    February 19, 2007 @ 5:14 pm

    computer - somdaj.com » Luca Passani is wrong in my opinion - discrimination isn’t good for business

    [...] Original post by Segala and software by Elliott Back   [...]

  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    Marten van Wezel
    flag

    February 19, 2007 @ 9:59 pm

    Let’s add another example:

    All race car manufacturers should be fined into compliance until they build racecars for blind people.

    Ha-ha yes I know my example is a touch more silly, but still, as Sean mentioned, the question is not if we should actively deny people access because ‘we hate their kind’, but if people should be penalized for not catering to everybody’s needs. Which site builder, if the effort is worth it, or negligible, would still refuse to welcome some specific group? Instead, the situation is more complex, and often, people who enter into this fight come into it from some politically correct high-horse perspective that says that everybody should be equal and treated equal at all cost.

    And, uh, THEY ARE NOT, and THEY SHOULD NOT, respectively.

    Another small example. Assume some site indeed perfectly supports disabled/special needs people. Cool. Then a group of eskimos starts picketing your front door because they want to read your website too. (they were recently evicted from their igloo and are now fugitives in your country, they don’t speak your language, so they have a -ha- special need too.).

    Do you feel we should hire translators to translate a site into every language known to man, simply because the possibility of a Xhosa warrior that was bored and clicked (*chuckle*) by might possibly want to see the site too?

    Do you want to demand of little Johnny, 6, that his first website advertising his yard sale of ‘gread ztuf!’ on the net to be braille-friendly or we will sue his little disabled-people-hating-hiny!

    No, and no.

    The only balanced way that I consider fair, is a bit of a cold one:
    - Every individual/business should be allowed to choose what they want to do, based on their own business sense (and perhaps: finances)
    - If they want to support the specific ‘disabled’ group of people, then we should have a subset of -additional- guidelines for these people.
    - Public service sites (like those maintained by the government) should be more accessible, and we - the people - should pay for this overhead by means of taxes.
    - If a disabled person would want to see a specific website work for him/her, they should indeed use some translating proxy, or, perhaps, mail the administratrion of that site. That way the admins will know that the (business?) case for supporting a specific group is growing stronger.
    - In the specific mobile case, chances are that a group with disabilities will need a translating system anyway. Blind people will need a ‘braille proxy’ for example. The proxy is there, let’s enhance it.

  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    Pablo Schaffner
    flag

    February 19, 2007 @ 10:56 pm

    I agree with Sean and Martin. I think their examples are the best, though i’ll like to give my comment about it. I don’t think Luca was discriminating with disabled people, but rather just being illustrative about a reality.

    It is really difficult to work in the mobile arena, and Luca has greatly simplified our lifes with WURFL. I think we should make the effort to “enable” the web and mobile to disabled people and not the way around. We have to strive for what we want to communicate and to whom we want to send the message first, then adapt it.

    Let’s take a blind person, for example. If a blind person wants to “watch” a tv commercial, i don’t think it’s discrimmination that the advertising company doesn’t make it braille enabled, because it was, at first place and glance, made for people who could actually see the adversing, and in a certain way, made specially to use a capacity they can use (sight in this case), in which a braille enable commercial like that would be pretty pointless.

    The same goes for mobile sites and devices. If you want people with a hearing incapacity to use a phone, well i think it’s not worth the effort to force all phone device companies to make all their devices capable of representing all spoken data on their screen and not putting great capabilities a lot of people can use because some won’t be able to, but rather to make a special phone device for those people with that need, and thus enabling what can be enabled.

    But in reallity, most people are not disabled. You shouldn’t be force or force everybody to make everything to everyone accesible, because at the end your product may be very compatible but certainly won’t be great, and the people may not understand as well your product because of the limitating compatible interface you used.

    This is why i think Luca is right and he is not discriminating.
    It’s the only real way to make things real.

  • February 19, 2007 @ 11:17 pm

    Sean – I think part of the solution lies with authoring tools. It’s not the entire solution. In fact, user agents have their part to play also. The W3C actually has guidelines for these stake holders [1] [2]. The W3C doesn’t place all of the emphasis on authors.

    I agree that WCAG is morally motivated, but in short, the guidelines are best practice design techniques that should be employed by Web developers anyway. Well, most of them anyway. Some are outdated and some are very difficult to implement. However, most of them are straight forward most of the time. Arguably WCAG 2.0 can be deemed heavy handed.

    Some people do actually make sites accessible for business reasons. For example, a site that is made accessible using WCAG is almost impossible to further improve for search engine optimisation, with the exception of a few things, such as copy. I’d like to invite someone from Google to correct me on this point.

    Regarding your point about mobileOK, the fact that we started with WCAG to create the Best Practices demonstrates my point – that is, accessibility for people helps with our cause for device independence.

    I’m in total agreement that we should encourage people to adopt accessibility best practices for all the positive reasons. I hate the use of the stick and have publicly slated industry reports that go out of their way to embarrass specific organisations.

    [1] Guidelines for authoring tools vendors
    http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/atag.php

    [2] Guidelines for User Agents
    http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/uaag.php

  • February 19, 2007 @ 11:25 pm

    Marten – your first example is just plain silly. It’s very easy to use silly extreme examples to demonstrate a point, but it does very little to ‘backup’ your point.

    I agree that some people speak about accessibility with a degree of political correctness. However, I’m not one of those people and I hope, my post demonstrates a balanced view.

    Eskimos? Emmm, not sure if that’s less or more silly that your first example. I can only suggest that you read my post again.

  • February 19, 2007 @ 11:33 pm

    Pablo – you’re right. Luca has done a great deal for mobile. Unfortunately he’s adding very little benefit to the acceleration of the Web on mobile phones IMHO. Luca has a fantastic appreciation for mobile technology. However, I don’t think he is realistic with his ambition to limit mobile users with WAP sites. The W3C is basically going to replace what he has with a standardised interface to help developers better understand the technical capabilities of mobile devices.

    Your example about hearing plug-ins for mobile users is spot on. As I’ve said, if the cost of making something accessible to everyone is cost prohibitive then don’t do it. Provide an alternative. It’s very easy to take parts of my post and respond out of context.

    Referring to your ‘most people aren’t disabled’ paragraph is full of obvious statements. However, the fact that you say most people aren’t disabled worries me. It sounds as if you don’t care just because there ‘aren’t that many’. I’ve taken this out of context, so perhaps I’ve misinterpreted what you meant.

    Interestingly, the annual spending power of the disabled community is £50 billion. I wouldn’t mind have a slice of that small humble pie ;)

  • February 19, 2007 @ 11:35 pm

    Readers of these comments might be interested in my view on Mobile Web http://segala.com/blog/web-on-the-move-anytime-anywhere/

  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    kenneth gf brown
    flag

    February 19, 2007 @ 11:37 pm

    wwoooo … an unmittigated personal attack…
    nice…. congradulations to luca for ‘making’ it

    I find it interesting and to tell the truth mostly anoying that we are to soon all use
    82pt type in all the documentation we write and to
    have mobile devices the size of a damn briefcase…(AGAIN)
    so that someone can see the screen using a telescope 53 miles away

    in addition It seams to be a wasted effort for accessability to such things as the extreame rock climbing site I visit.. or am I just being unreasonable?

    wait… damn u all.. the route to the top of everest is not wheelchair accessable!! holly crap lads… we need a ramp.. lets get at it!!!

    furthermore my disability is greatly underscored by the fact that a damn T9 programme cant deliver the word I WANT to use faster than the alpha entry setting.

    besides my fingers are too phat.
    and I cant spell… (in 5 languages)

    but wait we can get around this by installing text readers on all our outmoded wap1 phones… or better yet “you talk it typos” software for everyone! dragon naturally speaking would love this… and productivity would fall as I listen to the marketing team dictate the crap they try and ram down a client’s throat

    in addition…. how does one

    “Leaving the difficulties of developing Web sites that
    will work on mobile devices aside;”

    and deliver a sentient arguement with
    any thing wurfl related?

    most of your argument apears to be bemoning the web and web sites… THESE ARE NOT RELATED TO WURFL and
    the design and deployment of mobile sites….

    how can you argue against a position and ignore the basic tennant of that position

    untill a manufacture give you a 17in. diagonal screen on your cell phone that u can then render in 640×480 so the pixels are large enuf to be read across the room… well…. I don’t see that anywhere on the horizon…. and I don’t think
    that motorolla is gonna roll one out any time soon… except for
    the hacked together floor modles for trade show purposes…

    your vent and relating it to an elevator issue,
    or bitching and providing yet more free marketing (and a link) to an organisation you bemoan as a bad example of accessability…. who were “slated in the press and reaping the benefit of free PR ”

    ahhhh the argumentation is stunning….
    GAHHHH

    god damnit people TRY using VIEW –> TEXT SIZE –> LARGEST and stop
    making every thing in the world a POS because
    less than 1% of the population cant access it

    in addition and as a final point
    YOUR site is NOT as accessability
    friendly… is that RED or GREEN or a PALE GREY
    on the side links????

    and wait y are the links in 7pt type and NOT underscored

    practice + preach != lamma

    one day there’s gonna be a
    backlash to all this crap

    mutter mutter
    nevermind

    kenneth gf brown
    ceo shadowplay.net

  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    Paul Littlebury
    flag

    February 19, 2007 @ 11:43 pm

    Disability has been a low priority in web design for many years, and in doing so ignoring a large audience. I welcome the W3C move, and following accessibility guidelines not only assists in good coding and design practice, it enables sites to have more reach. The guidelines are not there to restrict development, but to ensure that accessibility and coding standards are included in the scope of a project.

    I believe that the WWW is probably tired of processing bloated media-heavy sites, that are largely pointless. I know I am. If the dissenters are saying the the new guidelines will be costly and difficult to implement from business and/or marketing perspective, lets hear some actual examples. Rather than meaningless comparisons. I am sure there were similar complaints of costs, overheads when someone dared to suggest subtitles for television programmes.

    The knee-jerk reaction to web accessibility movement has been disappointing to-date, and this article and responses has highlighted this. The web has been filled with so many sub-standard and overblown web sites, it is not only accessibility that has suffered - quality has also suffered.

    Examples given in preceding comments against the enforcement of guidelines are weak, as they are selected carefully to maximise the even weaker argument against web accessibility. I see the effort as maintaining the standards of the web. How can you truly know your audience, unless you enable them with the ability to access “your world”?

  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    Marten van Wezel
    flag

    February 19, 2007 @ 11:45 pm

    I disagree. A very wise man once said that if you wish to make something a law, you must be prepared to accept the extreme outcomes of that law. This specific man (Voltaire) said: ‘freedom of speech cannot be granted in degrees’. The point applies here, I think.

    To specify:
    - Yeah, my examples of race cars and eskimos might SEEM a bit silly, but they are intended to illustrate a point, and in my opinion they do. Applying your rules to all mobile sites will indeed please/appease the disabled people, however I feel that you then will have to apply your rules to ALL special needs groups. Who are you to decide that people who are (say) deaf are special ‘enough’ to be catered for, and that people who are -say- illiterate aren’t, so they don’t deserve a voicebook transcript of the site.

    The only way to be truely fair when it comes to catering to minorities is to cater to ALL minorities, to cater to NO minorities, or to cater to the minorities YOU consider wortwhile (based on your best attempt at a legitimate reason, and hopefully not discriminatory).

    Catering to all minorities is obviously impossible, and trying to separate out some minorities based on generic rules is an untenable position. Hence I suggest you go for pragmatic door #3.

    Additionally I wanted to remark that the inherent simplicity of mobile sites makes them ideal candidates for perfect automated translation into target groups (like braille readers).

  • February 20, 2007 @ 12:00 am

    Kenneth, take a deep breath before you give yourself a heart attack :)

    I’ll reply to one of your points as it was the only one that seemed to make sense (to me). That is, your point regarding our own site.

    We launched the site on Friday, so we not only have teething issues to resolve, we still have to create an alternative format for some users which may have difficulty with colour contrast. Yes, you could argue that it’s not Triple-A compliant. But we are practicing what we preach, that is, make a commitment for the long-term by improving accessibility over time. We are not extreme practitioners preaching to the world!

    Our old site was whiter than white. We did this not only to make it as accessible as possible technically, we did it because it was hammered constantly by validators and analysers. Some people (not you necessarily) take a quick look and make an immediate judgement based on limited knowledge. We no longer care about what people think if all they want to do is check one or two checkpoints that they think are important.

    However, we are also demonstrating that you can make partial claims of accessibility using Content Labels. Content Labels help search engines and browsers detect web sites that make assertions of some kind. There is a W3C initiative responsible for creating user profiles using metadata – because WCAG don’t reflect user profiles.

  • February 20, 2007 @ 12:03 am

    “How can you truly know your audience, unless you enable them with the ability to access “your world”?”

    Paul - I like it.

  • February 20, 2007 @ 12:11 am

    Marten - “Applying your rules to all mobile sites”. What rules are you referring to? I stated that only the relevant WCAG points were used for the MWI Best Practices. The MWI is driven and reviewed by mobile stake holders such as operators, content providers, content adaptation experts, browser vendors and handset vendors. That is, people who get mobile.

    I agree with your point regarding the law. There is no law that applies to content accessed via mobile devices. The law that applies to the Web in the UK is a little woolly to say the least. I personally believe that the law assumes the Web accessed via a desktop PC. However, who’s to say it doesn’t apply to mobile devices today (however silly it may be to us).

    Furthermore, the current legalisation under the DDA argues against your point, it states “make reasonable adjustment” - thereby not enforcing the extreme. But as you say, what’s that anyway.

    “(based on your best attempt at a legitimate reason, and hopefully not discriminatory).” - I agree! :)

  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    Paul Littlebury
    flag

    February 20, 2007 @ 12:11 am

    This has started something!

    We could have a debate until end of time on what counts as disability, but isnt it better to focus on the wider picture of web accessibility. It isnt a matter of which minority is worthy of your website’s attention - it is down to a company/individual to make it as easy or as difficult to read or understand. What is done on this level will affect your audience - in terms scale of audience, and that audiences perception’s of you. There are plenty of websites out there catering for minorities needs, with advice, information and entertainment. As with any “law”, it has a subtext, and I believe the subtext of web accessibility is better quality.

    Martin: I take your point regards the potential ramifications of the enforcement of these guidelines. The countries that have enforced this as a legal requirement, have gone a little too far maybe. There is always exception cases for any rule. But in QA, I have seen a downturn is quality from user perspective, despite the exciting technology and development evolutions. I still maintain that these accessibility measures will help in the long term.

  • February 20, 2007 @ 12:12 am

    What a ridiculous article. And the analogies, simply amazing. It’s almost impossible writing web pages accessible by all mobiles, handled by very capable people, now this. Typical of the corporatish consultantish ‘experts’. I think the author is simply jealous of Luca Pasani, someone who’s out there ‘doing it’ everyday, as opposed to writing philosophical nonsense.

  • February 20, 2007 @ 12:20 am

    Sam - I think you missed the point.

    My point is that we should try to make goods and services as accessible as possible. I didn’t mean that Web sites which are accessible on desktop computers should be equally accessible to people with disabilities when using mobile devices. Lord knows it’s difficult getting accessibility right on the desktop today.

    Jealous of Luca? No. We simply have two different views on the future of ‘the’ Web on mobile devices.

    http://segala.com/blog/web-on-the-move-anytime-anywhere/
    This is where the debate regarding the mobile web vs WAP should take place.

  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    Paul Littlebury
    flag

    February 20, 2007 @ 12:22 am

    In order to learn, it is useful to discuss. Chaos is fun to work in, and great for creativity - but at what cost? I believe we are all professional people talking here, with many years of experience through many “revolutions”. No-one is interested in making something out of nothing - that is not what I am in technology for. Luca made a statement that smacked of someone who has lost imagination (hopefully a temporary lapse). Rather than make assumptions on those you cannot see, or do not know, maybe interract rather than exploding like a irrational teenager.

  • February 20, 2007 @ 12:23 am

    BTW Luca first used analogies to demonstrate his point. I then used analogies to demonstrate mine. Neither of us were/are debating about making ‘mobile content’ accessible to people with disabilities.

  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    Marten van Wezel
    flag

    February 20, 2007 @ 12:30 am

    A little back-story then.

    My experience originates in the internet community world. I’ve operated multiple of such beasts. As an admin you get thrust into the role of judge, jury and executioner. And, since Ive tried to be open and fair about this all, Ive encountered a ton of pitfalls that a lot of lawmakers (those british ones included, appearantly) fail to appreciate.

    What it comes down to is this: Rules have to be ABSOLUTE. There can be no discussion about exceptions and ‘fairness’, the fairness needs to be implicit and explicit in the wording of the rules themselves. To try to call for ‘reasonability’ is to call for anarchy when people start to challenge eachothers boundraries.

    Hence my quite dogmatic fallback to hardcore basics.

    Which rules in this case, well you yourself said “… help developers ensure that they build Web sites which are accessible to as many users as possible, including people with disabilities.”.

    To try to help them, fine. To suggest ways to do this, sure, but to DEMAND certain things of web programmers because otherwise a site might not be viewed with BrailleReaderZeta 1.25b is folly. And that is, I feel, the problem with the W3C effort, they are trying to account for everything and anything, thereby sacrificing any hope of a viable ‘modern’ site.

    The fact that the MWI is backed by ’stakeholders’ is quite irrelevant, they can be wrong, or have alterior motives. (Simpeler page baseline means simpler devices means less investment cost, for example)

    Anyway, in the end I think most of us here try to make a positive effort to improve the mobile internet world, however I feel W3C is in fact hurting this movement by trying to impose needlessly limiting demands.

  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    kenneth gf brown
    flag

    February 20, 2007 @ 12:44 am

    a partial claim to accessability is like being only partially racist… either you ARE or you are not…

    a lame excues like
    we’ve only been live since friday is pretty much the same argument that your inaccessable web site used that you took offence to ….. see your example 3

    oh and hey on that topic… that “whiter than white comment” i take offence to that… you racist bastartds!!

    see where taking things to extreems gets you.
    any turn of phrase can get you into serious problems

    and as the rest of the points in the comment that must have missed you… how about this…

    WEB != MOBILE
    mobile != 1024×768 + 32M colours
    mobile != 3GB of onbaord memmory
    mobile != upgrade any time the end user wants to.
    mobile != javascript
    mobile != ajax
    mobile != a screen bigger than 1″ square with 3 lines of text…

    hmmm the list goes on…
    trust me it goes WAY ON!!!

    you’re lucky its all not black and white or
    in some cases an amber and black lcd

    as to meta tags in the content… laf
    have u every tried to construct a wml page ?? or a chtml page…
    or for that matter an xhtml-mp page…

    in MOST cases your accessability addons will cause the entire site to come crashing about your ears…
    take that to the ceo and smoke it.

    and its not because we are discriminating… its because there is no room on the damn device to store the x86 processor the text to speach translator and the u talk it typoes software you appear to desperatly need. in addition without making the device the size of a desktop computer there is going to be little abitlity to make the screen ACCESSABLE to everyone on the planet.

    as to the heart attack… dude…
    seriously… im very calm…

    just tired of unmittigated personal attacks based on taking comments on MOBILE interfaces out of CONTEXT and
    some how translating them as statements made regarding the internet as a WHOLE and Delivering them in an open FORUM …

    you might be looking at a liable lawsuit… as what luca was commenting on and how your editorial has twisted it … well…
    lets just say that it reads like your declaring luca as a anti disabled neo nazi warrior on a mission to deny them access to the net…. i personally would have called my lawyer….

    you are basicly saying in your title alone that luca is a bastard who is the SOLE reason that there is inaccessability in the online world. cuz most people wouldnt read further thatn your title and the first para abstract… nice…

    u know what … discrimination IS good…
    i discriminate against NAZI’s, right (or left) wing nutbars,
    religious fundamentalists and racist bastards all the time….
    in addition I dont have to conduct business with EVERYONE im allowd to decide who i will write code for and who i wont…

    i also tend to discriminate against all the PCbusibodies who have too much time on their hands… have done little real work on the topic they stick thier noses into… AND grossly liable the people who actually do….

    sad really… 5 days online and your already skirting a big lawsuit…. luca… load the litigation gun… fire away.

  • February 20, 2007 @ 12:51 am

    Marten - what’s a modern site?

    Background on me then so it’s in context - I’m Chair of the British Interactive Media Association - a trade association for the digital industry, specifically for creative industry. I stared with 25 people in a porter cabin at AOL in 1995 when people said things like ‘as if online marketing will take off’, as if you could do this, as if you could do that’… I’ve heard it all before. Yet mobile technology is improving much faster than the desktop ever did.

    So, I get creative and I get the need to express content in a creative way. However, what is creative? Is it Google.com or is it a site that’s full of flash jumping all over the place?

    The W3C doesn’t impose anything. It simply creates standards to ‘harmonize’. You don’t have to use them if you don’t want to. However, I’m sure you wouldn’t argue that standards such as HTML aren’t a tad bit useful?! :)

    Lastly, Apple and Nokia agree with me. They think the desktop Web will hit our mobile phones and they know a little more about what looks cool and what’s coming our way technically.

  • February 20, 2007 @ 12:57 am

    Kenneth - I stopped reading after your 3rd paragraph (I really did) so I can’t comment on anything you said after that. What I can say is that accessibility isn’t black and white.

    It will be impossible to make everything accessible to everyone all of the time. It’s about making reasonable adjustments… please don’t bother posting any more comments if you are going to hurl insults.

    I’m not afraid to demonstrate that Segala is not perfect, just like every other company.

  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    Paul Littlebury
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    February 20, 2007 @ 1:14 am

    I think Kenneth either has to stop taking his unperscribed sweets, or start taking his perscribed ones. Ranting from an ivory tower of perfection is a precarious standpoint, especially communicating via extreme outbursts. It is also short-term thinking. Rules always bring out the child-like instinctive resistance in us, but I think the perception here is overblown. Web Accessibility laws is not the Criminal Justice Bill, and the only real result of these efforts will be better quality web - the potential increased time/effort will be filling the time/effort that should have been applied in development in the first place. The www is not a toy :)

  • February 20, 2007 @ 2:07 am

    Paul’s view, while surely well motivated and aimed at making life easier and fairer to all people in the world, crashes against the cold truth:

    No matter what you and I could wish, we are not all made the same: we have different needs, different abilities and there’s NO way in the world to provide a “universal” device that allows _everyone_ to use it having or not having any sort of disability. It’s a shame, but it’s the way it is.

    It’s already _quite_ difficult to achieve accesibility on the web. It’s IMPOSSIBLE on nowaday’s mobile devices.

    Most mobile devices are NOT ACCESSIBLE by their selves. I mean: what’s really DISABLED it’s the MOBILE DEVICES.

    There’s no point in trying to force best practices and at the same time achieve compatibility with thousands (yes, thousands) of different devices. I think general usability should come before special accessibility.

    Please note: I’m not saying that disabled people should be left out, but there’s _always_ a line to be drawn and the technology on devices forces the line to be located way far that most of us would wish.

    I couldn’t agree more with Luca regarding web usability. I think W3C efforts, while well-minded, will crash against reality with nowadays devices. Special content-adaptation and proxies play a key role in adapting the world to people with special needs. I don’t see why the mobile web should be an exception.

    To bring the line closer, the solution it’s to focus in making better and more powerfule devices, thay will surely include ways to allow people with disabilities to use them, like most modern Operating Systems do (Hey, it’s Windows implementing those special services, not every single programmer making a piece of software that runs on it).

    Back to your original post, I find suspicious the abundance of analogies with real-world situations, but I’m not seeing any _real_ examples of accesible mobile sites or leading cases to support your view. Even a “don’t” case could help us see your POV with less skepticism.

    If W3C thinks this is doable, the better way to enforce it is by means of “reference implementations”. Make EXAMPLES of mobile accesible sites.

    Let us ignorant mobile developers see the light, so we can implement voice recognition, alt tags and multi-size fonts on a clumsy B/W WML wap browser.

    BTW, let it be a “nice” site also, attractive and full of images, so the other 99% of the world can enjoy life a little also.

  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    Pablo Schaffner
    flag

    February 20, 2007 @ 3:37 am

    I think i understand much better your point now Paul Walsh.

    I just intended to say there are some things that already exist that aren’t really made for (but will continue to exist, and thus is very important to mantain compatibility) disabled people. For example, the mobile devices themself are not practical for their size and etc, for disabled people.

    I also agree with someone here who said it’s not possible to use meta tags to tell devices to use something special, because the formats that already exist and to which we must be compatibility to, don’t support anything outside their languages (it wouldn’t be backwards compatible).

    I believe your point Paul is that in some point the Web and the mobile will colapse, and in some sense the devices should be able to see Web pages as an accesible device for the same webpage, using (old devices) or not using a proxy (new devices). Is this the intent of your article or did i misunderstood it?

    So people should focus to design better webpages that support mobile devices instead of developing specifically wappages. I think this is what Luca doesn’t agree with (saying it in GAP in wurfl’s website). Should the W3C define the set of guidelines so that web developers make their websites mobile enabled?

    I think we are both saying good things, Luca, you and some people here (including me), but not communicating very well between us. I think Luca and the rest of us would be in the side of making better use of mobile devices focusing in adaptation of capabilities and etc, and developing the server proxies perhaps behind wap sites to help them access these special sites, and you are in the side of saying the W3C should define guidelines for the websites so that proxies know what to read. There isn’t really a conflict here, we both support the alternative you propose in some way, but we will have different opinions about it since our POV is very different because of our respective backgrounds (we are more like pure wap developers and you seem more like a web developer).

    I believe i and many others here did not understand your neutral point of view here, because the emotion you express in your article looks like an attack to Luca. Maybe the title you used wasn’t talking about Luca discriminating in business, but rather “discrimination isn’t good for business” as a title, and “luca is wrong” as your opinion. I just think it was a confusing/conflicting title.

  • 4Avatars v0.3.1
    Sean Owen
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    February 20, 2007 @ 4:09 am

    To, ah, maybe clarify some of my points in this surprisingly spirited discussion — I was comparing W3C efforts in mobile to efforts in accessibility, but was not trying to suggest we consider mobile accessibility. In that sense I totally agree with Alejandro. The mobile experience needs to be made usable to users, period, before one thinks about accessibility concerns. First things first.

    Also I was not particularly suggesting that WCAG and MWI / mobileOK have the same goals. If anything I was noting that WCAG and mobileOK are fundamentally different concerns, given that accessibility and mobile-friendliness are, respectively, driven by legal and business concerns. I suppose I meant to imply that accessibility concerns should think a little more about cost versus benefit — dare I say that WCAG should take notes from mobileOK’s practicality? Nay, I won’t say that since WCAG and accessibility are indeed motivated by something different.

    But, one theme I see emerging here which I do agree with is that intelligent authoring of markup helps in many areas. Such pages are friendlier to mobile devices (and transcoders), and also to screen readers and so on. I agree with the point against bloated, media-heavy junk on the web. I do agree that a well-authored page no doubt does better with search engines for indirect reasons. I think Luca would agree since he, like me, believes in solving the problem largely on the client side, while pushing for compatible, good authoring practices on the server side — rather than huge, expensive, heavy-handed solutions on every server in the world.

  • February 20, 2007 @ 8:00 am

    I turn on my PC in the morning, and I notice that there’s been a hell of a party going on here in the night!

    Paul, I may have been wrong many times in my life, but apparently this is not one of them (at least if I judge from the feedback you got from readers).

    Of course, I am not advocating discriminating against people with disabilities. I was just making a point against having WCAG mud the water when it comes to telling people how to build good and usable mobile sites. When it comes to MWI PB, WCAG has not brought much benefit. In fact, I think I did much more for usability and caring for the need of all end-users with GAP (http://www.passani.it/gap/ ) than MWI ever cared for with BP. That’s the point I was trying to make. Just to be more specific, let me describe the BP “practices” that were forced in by the WCAG lobby:
    - do not use frames and pop-ups in mobile site. You’ll agree with me that it does not take a genius to figure that out. Many imode users in Japan also created CHTML sites they could show to their friends (previewing in MSIE) and, guess what, they were not trying to open windows and frames! all in all, a pretty pointless contribution.
    - do not use tables for layout: this is a BAD practice. tables are the only way to place picture and text side-by-side on a mobile browser in a way that works consistently across all mobile browsers (and no, CSS can’t do it at the moment, not on the same variety of devices at least). As a little aside, you can use table for layout and still validate 5 out of 5 with the dotMobi validator. Obviously, I am not the only one who thinks this WCAG contribution to BP is rubbish.
    - use colors with high-contrast: that’s also bad. You may choose colors with high contrast for your mobile site, pass W3C and segala validation/certifications with flying colors, only to find that some devices won’t honor the color for hyperlinks, thus leaving the user totally stranded in practice. Not very accessible.

    Luca Passani

  • February 20, 2007 @ 8:26 am

    Alejandro - I think you *might* be making assumptions about what I’m saying. I believe in delivering content in a way that is a contextual representation of the device used. This can only be achieved using best practices, methods suggested by Sean (which are best practices) and adaptation. That said, you only have to listen to Apple and Nokia (recently) - they believe they can deliver a great user experience for Web users on mobile devices. OK, this isn’t going to happen over night, but why are so many people looking back?! Take a look at the capability of the iPhone (full stop).

    Not every device will have great Web browsing capability, but it’s about consumer choice as some will have very good browsing capability soon. Opera mini offers a decent experience today.

    Again, I wasn’t talking specifically about accessibility on mobile devices with regard to the Web. Lord knows (as you point out), it’s difficult to get it right on the desktop.

    I don’t think your an ignorant mobile developer. I respect mobile developers just like any other developer. I do see a similar trend with mobile developers today like I did on the desktop in the mid 90’s. The difference is that so many more people want to make improvements today, there are more best practices (believe it or not) and technology is moving much quicker.

    Sigh, at last, someone with constructive points without hurling insults :)

  • February 20, 2007 @ 8:36 am

    Pablo - spot on! Thanks :)

    The difference of opinion between me and Luca is that I believe in ‘trying’ to deliver the Web experience on mobile devices. I *do* realise that this is almost impossible to achieve without adaptation amongst other things *today*.

    I believe that without WAP, the user experience would have been so poor that we’d never encourage users to use the Web. My company has vast experience in testing WAP gateways, devices, content and applications such as Active. So it’s not as if I’m a desktop Web person without mobile experience or appreciation – quite the opposite.

    I’m an evangelist for keeping *the* Web in line and to help ensure it doesn’t go off in different directions just because we have a limitation in a specific technology at one point in time. Mobiles are just smaller screens with restrictive input and cost issues. All of these things are improving all the time (a point I continue to highlight).

    I’ve got the future in mind whilst realising that we must retain a mobile specific contextual mix of applications and content. There will always be a use case for this. There will also be a use case for the Web when best practices *help* play a part, technology continues to advance, operators drop price points and consumers become more aware. Not to mention, when mobile networks are rolling out more across developing countries. T

    he W3C MWI is just 1 actor on stage - it’s not trying to resolve everything for everyone today. It’s a step in the right direction.