Comments on: O2 taking a bite out of the forbidden fruit? http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/ Enabling a Reliable, Consistent and Trusted Experience Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:08:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Paul Walsh http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-721474 Paul Walsh Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:35:57 +0000 http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-721474 @Richard - ah. Well, I was actually speaking from a UK perspective - shouldn't have made an assumption about country either, eh. The pricing for EVERYTHING in Ireland is a sham. It's not just O2. Everyone with a retail outlet in Ireland for some reason, feels the need to rip off the Irish market. @Richard - ah. Well, I was actually speaking from a UK perspective - shouldn’t have made an assumption about country either, eh. The pricing for EVERYTHING in Ireland is a sham. It’s not just O2. Everyone with a retail outlet in Ireland for some reason, feels the need to rip off the Irish market.

]]> By: Richard Delevan http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-721470 Richard Delevan Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:32:30 +0000 http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-721470 @Paul - it wasn't so much a comment on your predictive powers - I think your view was shared by a lot of people. In fact, I wonder if their need to justify a non-walled garden, non-imode approach affected decisions on pricing that may have in turn depressed takeup in IRL, and triggered Pat Phelanesque responses. Great point about the 3G network. I've been happily chugging away on their edge network, so a good reason to wait and see. Was in a meeting today where speculation was rife about what the larger impacts of the 3G iphone will look like a year out - like how fast will it accelerate m-content adaptations if takeup is strong. Anyway thanks for the reply. @Paul - it wasn’t so much a comment on your predictive powers - I think your view was shared by a lot of people. In fact, I wonder if their need to justify a non-walled garden, non-imode approach affected decisions on pricing that may have in turn depressed takeup in IRL, and triggered Pat Phelanesque responses.

Great point about the 3G network. I’ve been happily chugging away on their edge network, so a good reason to wait and see.

Was in a meeting today where speculation was rife about what the larger impacts of the 3G iphone will look like a year out - like how fast will it accelerate m-content adaptations if takeup is strong.

Anyway thanks for the reply.

]]> By: Paul Walsh http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-721380 Paul Walsh Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:40:28 +0000 http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-721380 @Richard - in short, I got it wrong. I didn't think O2 would launch the iPhone for the reasons I mentioned. That said, I didn't really give it that much thought - I was encouraged to stimulate the wider debate about the Mobile Web and how Operators need to assume it's something they'll have to provide access to, in the immediate future. I'm pleased to see O2 win the contract however, as their EDGE network is half-decent. Although I'm looking forward to seeing how it handles the network traffic once the 3G hits the market in July. NB. all existing customers get a free upgrade to the new 3G handset - as long as they sign up to another 18 month contract. So, expect to see huge usage on the network. I just hope the speed on the 3G network doesn't end up worse than that on EDGE - it's possible due to the traffic! @Richard - in short, I got it wrong. I didn’t think O2 would launch the iPhone for the reasons I mentioned. That said, I didn’t really give it that much thought - I was encouraged to stimulate the wider debate about the Mobile Web and how Operators need to assume it’s something they’ll have to provide access to, in the immediate future.

I’m pleased to see O2 win the contract however, as their EDGE network is half-decent. Although I’m looking forward to seeing how it handles the network traffic once the 3G hits the market in July.

NB. all existing customers get a free upgrade to the new 3G handset - as long as they sign up to another 18 month contract. So, expect to see huge usage on the network. I just hope the speed on the 3G network doesn’t end up worse than that on EDGE - it’s possible due to the traffic!

]]> By: Richard Delevan http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-720951 Richard Delevan Mon, 23 Jun 2008 08:36:30 +0000 http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-720951 Hi Paul - you wrote back then..."if O2 is to ship the all singing and all dancing device [iPhone], they’re likely to either remove the Web browser altogether, or make it difficult to find." Any thoughts on why things panned out differently, and how you think it's gone so far? Hi Paul - you wrote back then…”if O2 is to ship the all singing and all dancing device [iPhone], they’re likely to either remove the Web browser altogether, or make it difficult to find.”

Any thoughts on why things panned out differently, and how you think it’s gone so far?

]]> By: Paul Walsh http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-55737 Paul Walsh Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:47:48 +0000 http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-55737 @Phil - I think one of O2's biggest mistakes was not supplying enough devices which are iMode enabled. How can you get mass adoption using a small number of devices. @Ben - forgot to ask... know of where we can get our hands on a Windows mobile? ;) @Phil - I think one of O2’s biggest mistakes was not supplying enough devices which are iMode enabled. How can you get mass adoption using a small number of devices.

@Ben - forgot to ask… know of where we can get our hands on a Windows mobile? ;)

]]> By: Paul Walsh http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-55735 Paul Walsh Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:34:05 +0000 http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-55735 @Ben - You're right, iMode never did take off in Europe. There are lots of reasons why iMode worked in Japan. The main one is that users don't have a choice. Secondly DoCoMo is in a position to dictate to vendors when to renew devices so that they avail of the latest in technology. I remember having dinner with DoCoMo's W3C Mobile Web Initiative rep. He was very concerned about the mobileOK trustmark. He said it would give users the impression that the content on a particular site was 'suitable'. This in fact isn't true, mobileOK is an assertion about the suitability of a Web site for mobile devices. After some digging, I realised that he was more worried about the commercial viability of their business model should users end up gaining access to the Open Web (aka not iMode). I would be delighted to see O2 adopt the open garden approach as I'm quite confident that most if not all, operators will go with flat data tarrifs soon - just like the ISPs did in the mid to late 90's. A reliable source informed me that WAP was and continues to be more successful than iMode at O2. So, perhaps they have seen the light :) @Ben - You’re right, iMode never did take off in Europe. There are lots of reasons why iMode worked in Japan. The main one is that users don’t have a choice. Secondly DoCoMo is in a position to dictate to vendors when to renew devices so that they avail of the latest in technology.

I remember having dinner with DoCoMo’s W3C Mobile Web Initiative rep. He was very concerned about the mobileOK trustmark. He said it would give users the impression that the content on a particular site was ’suitable’. This in fact isn’t true, mobileOK is an assertion about the suitability of a Web site for mobile devices.

After some digging, I realised that he was more worried about the commercial viability of their business model should users end up gaining access to the Open Web (aka not iMode).

I would be delighted to see O2 adopt the open garden approach as I’m quite confident that most if not all, operators will go with flat data tarrifs soon - just like the ISPs did in the mid to late 90’s.

A reliable source informed me that WAP was and continues to be more successful than iMode at O2. So, perhaps they have seen the light :)

]]> By: Phil http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54919 Phil Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:46:05 +0000 http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54919 <strong>Paul</strong>: i-Mode marketed intelligently! I suppose so, it seems to me to just be a name for something that you should want, whether you do or not! I've been an O2 customer, but not had an i-mode phone from them, if it was that restrictive then I'm glad! Though I did get Opera mini when I was on O2 (and thus started spending too much on my monthly contract!) <strong>Ben</strong>: Is the Web 'n' Walk really Opera Mini? I have both on my Sony Ericsson K800i and Opera Mini gives a much better experience. Unless Web 'n' Walk is an older version of Opera, it is no real comparison. Perhaps selling the iPhone will cause O2 to pay attention to data plans and their tariffs in general and make them competitive again. Then again, I'd love to see the iPhone cracked so I could use it with T-Mobile too! Paul: i-Mode marketed intelligently! I suppose so, it seems to me to just be a name for something that you should want, whether you do or not! I’ve been an O2 customer, but not had an i-mode phone from them, if it was that restrictive then I’m glad! Though I did get Opera mini when I was on O2 (and thus started spending too much on my monthly contract!)

Ben: Is the Web ‘n’ Walk really Opera Mini? I have both on my Sony Ericsson K800i and Opera Mini gives a much better experience. Unless Web ‘n’ Walk is an older version of Opera, it is no real comparison.

Perhaps selling the iPhone will cause O2 to pay attention to data plans and their tariffs in general and make them competitive again. Then again, I’d love to see the iPhone cracked so I could use it with T-Mobile too!

]]> By: Ben Childers http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54903 Ben Childers Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:04:14 +0000 http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54903 I have to say that the string of comments is interesting and I agree that iMode has never taken off in EU as it has by DoCoMo in Japan. Putting that aside, I would like to point out that at 3GSM, Tanya Field, Director of Content for O2 UK, talked about the directions that O2 is headed with regards to Mobile advertising. The walled garden approach is just not going to work. It will be important that the walls are broken down and as broadband speeds come to mobile devices, unlimited data plans subsidised through mobile advertising will be a key driver. Not only the iPhone, but Windows Mobile Devices, and many of the newer smartphones (Nokia, Samsung, etc.) devices are moving towards the browser being a main component of the device. It does not surprise me at all that O2 would think about launching the iPhone. They will have to package a data plan that makes sense with the device or they will have a lot of unhappy customers who do not fully understand the amount of data used when browsing with a more full featured browser. BTW the T-Mobile web-n-walk browser is just a rebranded Opera mini browser. I do not think that T-Mobile would be successful in getting the web-n-walk branding on the iPhone. I just don’t think that Apple is going to get on that train. This as Phil stated is unfortunate because T-Mobile relay does seem to get data plans and the importance of driving browse traffic. It will be very interesting to watch and see how quickly unlock codes, if any, come out for the iPhone. That way you could use any operator! ;-) I have to say that the string of comments is interesting and I agree that iMode has never taken off in EU as it has by DoCoMo in Japan.

Putting that aside, I would like to point out that at 3GSM, Tanya Field, Director of Content for O2 UK, talked about the directions that O2 is headed with regards to Mobile advertising. The walled garden approach is just not going to work. It will be important that the walls are broken down and as broadband speeds come to mobile devices, unlimited data plans subsidised through mobile advertising will be a key driver.

Not only the iPhone, but Windows Mobile Devices, and many of the newer smartphones (Nokia, Samsung, etc.) devices are moving towards the browser being a main component of the device. It does not surprise me at all that O2 would think about launching the iPhone. They will have to package a data plan that makes sense with the device or they will have a lot of unhappy customers who do not fully understand the amount of data used when browsing with a more full featured browser.

BTW the T-Mobile web-n-walk browser is just a rebranded Opera mini browser. I do not think that T-Mobile would be successful in getting the web-n-walk branding on the iPhone. I just don’t think that Apple is going to get on that train. This as Phil stated is unfortunate because T-Mobile relay does seem to get data plans and the importance of driving browse traffic. It will be very interesting to watch and see how quickly unlock codes, if any, come out for the iPhone. That way you could use any operator! ;-)

]]> By: Scott Hughes http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54693 Scott Hughes Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:23:47 +0000 http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54693 Hi Paul A couple of things. If O2 take the iPhone then Safari will be front and centre, it is central to the iPhone functionality. If you look at all of the adverts and the Steve Jobs keynotes you will see that Safari/mobile web is one of the key fundamentals of what the iPhone is. In fact at the initial launch at Macworld 2007 the iPhone was introduced as a 3-in-1 device: 1. a mobile internet device, 2. a media player and 3. a phone. Furthermore, if you look at the reviews from the users it would seem that the phone UI is the weakest aspect of the device (as well as the EDGE usage). As an aside there is a small % of people are trying to find ways to use the device as an iPod with WiFi internet (ie ignoring the phone aspect of it and faking the AT&T activation). On top of this is the fact that Apple appear to be in control in all the negotiations. My take is that this was the stumbling block with the EU deals and everyone took a decision to watch the US launch and see how successful it was rather than kowtow to Apples demands. Once the US launch was seen as a success (over a 500,000 activations and rapidly heading towards the 1,000,000 mark ) then the final deals were signed. My feeling is that what has finally driven the Operators to sign up is the large amount of transfers from other operators that the iPhone has brought AT&T. My other reason for feeling that Safari will be front and centre is the emphasis on the mobile sites, widgets and web apps to substitute for the fact that there is no SDK or way of loading in third party apps. Launch without Safari and all of this functionality is lost. With regards to data plans I would say wait and watch. It would seem current plans would not necessarily be related to iPhone plans. The AT&T launch brought iPhone specific plans .... a wide range of call/SMS type plans plus unlimited data on them all. Basically the iPhone will be a crippled device unless you have a proper data plan. Hi Paul

A couple of things. If O2 take the iPhone then Safari will be front and centre, it is central to the iPhone functionality. If you look at all of the adverts and the Steve Jobs keynotes you will see that Safari/mobile web is one of the key fundamentals of what the iPhone is. In fact at the initial launch at Macworld 2007 the iPhone was introduced as a 3-in-1 device: 1. a mobile internet device, 2. a media player and 3. a phone.

Furthermore, if you look at the reviews from the users it would seem that the phone UI is the weakest aspect of the device (as well as the EDGE usage). As an aside there is a small % of people are trying to find ways to use the device as an iPod with WiFi internet (ie ignoring the phone aspect of it and faking the AT&T activation).

On top of this is the fact that Apple appear to be in control in all the negotiations. My take is that this was the stumbling block with the EU deals and everyone took a decision to watch the US launch and see how successful it was rather than kowtow to Apples demands. Once the US launch was seen as a success (over a 500,000 activations and rapidly heading towards the 1,000,000 mark ) then the final deals were signed. My feeling is that what has finally driven the Operators to sign up is the large amount of transfers from other operators that the iPhone has brought AT&T.

My other reason for feeling that Safari will be front and centre is the emphasis on the mobile sites, widgets and web apps to substitute for the fact that there is no SDK or way of loading in third party apps. Launch without Safari and all of this functionality is lost.

With regards to data plans I would say wait and watch. It would seem current plans would not necessarily be related to iPhone plans. The AT&T launch brought iPhone specific plans …. a wide range of call/SMS type plans plus unlimited data on them all. Basically the iPhone will be a crippled device unless you have a proper data plan.

]]> By: John http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54690 John Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:12:41 +0000 http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54690 iMode has always been a flawed technology in Europe, so I for one will welcome a data-friendly device without a kneecapped browsing experience. Perhaps the capture of the iPhone will go hand in hand with flat rate data, better customer services and a proper ecosystem of content and apps with realistic prices attached. iMode has always been a flawed technology in Europe, so I for one will welcome a data-friendly device without a kneecapped browsing experience.

Perhaps the capture of the iPhone will go hand in hand with flat rate data, better customer services and a proper ecosystem of content and apps with realistic prices attached.

]]> By: Paul Walsh http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54685 Paul Walsh Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:39:09 +0000 http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54685 @Phil - I hear you. I'm a little sorry to hear of the possibility of O2 selling the iPhone. iMode confuses a lot of people because of how it's marketed (intelligently). Firstly, I like iMode and any other WAP equivalent as they provide a good user experience. That said, iMode is no substitute for the World Wide Web that you access on your desktop PC. It's impossible to access that unless O2 provide a HTML/XHTML browser, not just an iMode browser, which will not display ordinary Web sites. @Paul Miller - technically they can get away with what they want. However, I don't think Jobs would permit it (assuming he's away of the possibility). @Phil - I hear you. I’m a little sorry to hear of the possibility of O2 selling the iPhone. iMode confuses a lot of people because of how it’s marketed (intelligently). Firstly, I like iMode and any other WAP equivalent as they provide a good user experience. That said, iMode is no substitute for the World Wide Web that you access on your desktop PC. It’s impossible to access that unless O2 provide a HTML/XHTML browser, not just an iMode browser, which will not display ordinary Web sites.

@Paul Miller - technically they can get away with what they want. However, I don’t think Jobs would permit it (assuming he’s away of the possibility).

]]> By: Paul Miller http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54683 Paul Miller Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:30:16 +0000 http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54683 Surely O2 can't get away with constraining the iPhone with imode? The 'internet in you pocket' message is a powerful aspect of the iPhone pitch, and imode is a long way from that! Given that Vodafone and even Orange must have been contenders, wouldn't Apple have been in a reasonably strong position to insist on full and unconstrained data use? I agree, though, that the Mobile Web as a concept will not go anywhere far until the telcos give up some of their daft notions of walled gardens and premium content... Anyone remember O2's silver surfer? Surely O2 can’t get away with constraining the iPhone with imode? The ‘internet in you pocket’ message is a powerful aspect of the iPhone pitch, and imode is a long way from that! Given that Vodafone and even Orange must have been contenders, wouldn’t Apple have been in a reasonably strong position to insist on full and unconstrained data use?

I agree, though, that the Mobile Web as a concept will not go anywhere far until the telcos give up some of their daft notions of walled gardens and premium content…

Anyone remember O2’s silver surfer?

]]> By: Phil http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54682 Phil Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:28:12 +0000 http://segala.com/blog/o2-taking-a-bite-out-of-the-forbidden-fruit/#comment-54682 I am disappointed to see that O2 are to be the ones to supply the iPhone in the UK for a couple of reasons. The fact that it pushes i-mode, whatever it is... a portal, a browser(?), even the definition from the <a href="http://mobilereviews.o2.co.uk/devices/MasterT32.jsp?jLetter=I" rel="nofollow">o2 site</a> leaves a lot to the imagination, means that it is possible that they will hide Safari. I'm sure they couldn't get rid of it though. Secondly, O2 have awful data tariffs. They are perpetuating a dark age of the mobile web by giving "1Mb inclusive browsing allowance each month" on their normal tariffs and charging £3 per MB after that. I was hoping T-mobile would get the iPhone, as their Web 'n' Walk tariffs would allow the data needed to make use of a phone with such potential (even though they include a Web 'n' Walk browser). Even Vodafone have started to offer better deals on mobile Internet. I would like to see the iPhone revolutionise the mobile web too, but unless O2 pulls something spectacular out of the tariff bag I fear the mobile web will be set free by the phone but restricted by your wallet. I am disappointed to see that O2 are to be the ones to supply the iPhone in the UK for a couple of reasons.

The fact that it pushes i-mode, whatever it is… a portal, a browser(?), even the definition from the o2 site leaves a lot to the imagination, means that it is possible that they will hide Safari. I’m sure they couldn’t get rid of it though.

Secondly, O2 have awful data tariffs. They are perpetuating a dark age of the mobile web by giving “1Mb inclusive browsing allowance each month” on their normal tariffs and charging £3 per MB after that.

I was hoping T-mobile would get the iPhone, as their Web ‘n’ Walk tariffs would allow the data needed to make use of a phone with such potential (even though they include a Web ‘n’ Walk browser). Even Vodafone have started to offer better deals on mobile Internet.

I would like to see the iPhone revolutionise the mobile web too, but unless O2 pulls something spectacular out of the tariff bag I fear the mobile web will be set free by the phone but restricted by your wallet.

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